***** Logging started: 12/15/2002 9:00:35 PM

Margaret Moorman: I'm in Illinois. I work for the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center. I've been here for 4 years.
Elizabeth Warren: I'm Elizabeth Warren, an RVT in Austin, Texas. I teach in a new vet tech program here and work at the ec on weekends. Please tell us a little about yourself.

Thomas: Midwest, I am from ohio. I'm a surgical tech in a small animal exotic with some zoo animals thrown in. My main interest is avian medicine though . Oh, we just had a marjuana toxicsis tyesturday

Margaret Moorman: What kind of animal?

Thomas: 10 # pomeranian. He is doing much better today though

Margaret Moorman: Good. Who knew that marijuana would be a holiday hazard?

Thomas: thank goodnes the owner was honest with us. she was having some party.

Margaret Moorman: Sounds like it. I'm always amazed at how many people are worried that the veterinarian is going to turn them in. But then we actually had some people say that they do turn them in during the the tox course in October.
Elizabeth Warren: Really? That's awful--people are not going to be willing to trust their vets with the truth if that keeps. I'm shocked, myself. Seems that would be a violation of confidentiality and something a vet
Margaret Moorman: Yes, I was shocked I always tell people that our job is to help the animal not be policemen.

Thomas: It depends on the safety of the animal

Margaret Moorman: Good point. I probably should have said something along those lines, but I didn't.

Brenda: My beagle ate a bag of chocolate covered macadamias one Christmas, she was pretty sick for a day. And Elizabeth, you are to blame for my interview tomorrow at a EC cllinic, you tell us about such interesting cases!
Megan: Hi-this is my first time here, I'm a first year tech student (I have a BS in animal science)that currently works in vet pharm sales. I worked for a 4 doctor mixed animal practice for almost 4 years. I work for a distributor, actually.

Elizabeth Warren: So, we're going to be talking about holiday hazards tonight. Animals we may see coming in to our clinics, questions we'll get from clients--we all need to know what is dangerous to pets.

Brenda: I have a question, is the mistletoe leaf toxic or just the berries, that we don't even see in the US?
Thomas: I think it is just the berries

Margaret Moorman: To address the misletoe question, berries can also be toxic, but the leaves are worse. I double checked with one of the veterinarians here, so I'm going to have to say leaves.
Elizabeth Warren: I thought I read somewhere that the berries were toxic enough to be potentially fatal (cardiovascular tox).

Brenda: I thought so too Elizabeth, to children also.

Margaret Moorman: Berries and leaves both can be potentially fatal.

Brenda: I thought somewhere in the tox course that it was said that the berries are very toxic but that all of the berries are fake with the US mistletoe, if I ever figure out my zipped files I'll check.

Elizabeth Warren: Let me just briefly go through the list (I'm sure we've all heard this before!), and then we can spend our time on
Q&A. HAZARDS AROUND THE CHRISTMAS TREE
* Christmas tree water may contain fertilizers, which, if ingested, can cause stomach upset. Stagnant tree water can be breeding grounds for bacteria, which can also lead to vomiting, nausea, and diarrhea, if ingested.
* Electric cords- Avoid animal exposure to electric cords. If they were chewed, they could electrocute your pet. Cover up or hide electric cords, never let your pet chew on them.
* Ribbons or tinsel can get caught up in the intestines and cause intestinal obstruction.
* Batteries contain corrosives. If ingested they can cause ulceration to the mouth, tongue, and the rest of the gastrointestinal tract.
* Glass ornaments can cut the tissues of the gastrointestinal tract if ingested. Any thoughts/questions/experiences/advice on these things?

Brenda: You can run electrical cords through PVC pipe if your pet won't chew that.
Thomas: Keep cord unpligged unless supervised Keep lots of fresh h20 out
Megan: don't even risk using tinsel with small animals in the house; same goes for gingerbread men with strings
Brenda: I used to use aluminum foil around me tree water to keep my dog out but someone just told me to use an e-collar around the tree's water bowl. I put my tree in the play pen when my kids were little.
Phyllis: What about yarn and tinsel? We just removed several feet of yarn from a cat's intestines.

Margaret Moorman: Good suggestion, Brenda.
Elizabeth Warren: Another good idea. :) I like the e-collar idea around the base of the tree. If you hang tinsel, don't put it on a part of the tree the pets can reach. Can't tell you how many times I've seen cats with tinsel hanging out of one end or the other of their GI tract! Worse when the owners try to pull it out.

Thomas: I just avoid tinsel altogether
Megan: same here. they're too darn clever when it comes to all the things we don't think they'll get into :)
Thomas: I have problems with my bird wanting to climb the tree

Elizabeth Warren: Hmmm. I might keep the bird out of the room with the x-mas tree altogether. I have birds, too. I usually don't have a tree.
Margaret Moorman: I don't either. I'm saving up for a fake one though.

Thomas: We get tones of choclate eaters and pancreatitis this time of year

Elizabeth Warren: OK. Lets go through the plants:
PLANTS
* Lilies that may be found in holiday flower arrangements could be deadly to your cat. Many types of lily, such as Tiger, Asian, Japanese Show, Easter, Stargazer, and the Casa Blanca, can cause kidney failure in cats.
* Poinsettias are generally over-rated in toxicity. If ingested, poinsettias can be irritating to the mouth and stomach, and may cause mild vomiting or nausea.
* Mistletoe has the potential to cause cardiovascular problems. However, mistletoe ingestion usually only causes gastrointestinal upset.
* Holly ingestion could cause vomiting, nausea, diarrhea, and lethargy.

Elizabeth Warren: Then again, I believed the poinsettia thing for a long time, too. :)

Thomas: I never heard about the lillies.
Brenda: With Lilllies, all parts of the plant or the bulb?

Elizabeth Warren: Thomas, it isn't all lillies--the lily family is huge. But I am no horticulturist, so for me all lillies are suspect. :) Thomas, a cat doesn't even have to eat a lily leaf, they only have to chew on it.

Thomas: I grow several of the mentioned lillies in my garden

Margaret Moorman: Peace lilies are actually, not true lilies. They're Spathyiphyllum.

Phyllis: Oh, good because I have those in my house!

Margaret Moorman: They cause oral irritation and sometimes swelling of the tissues in the mouth. They can be potentially serious if the tissues at the back of the mouth swell. Try giving a small amount of milk to neutralize the calcium oxylate crystals that cause the swelling.
Elizabeth Warren: That reminds me, I think a lot of plants contain oils and resins that can cause mucus membrane burn and gastrointestinal upset. Such as pine needles. So even plants that are "non-toxic" can make a pet feel sick.
Margaret Moorman: Yes, that's true. And things made with the oils can cause problems too, like pine cleaners or orange cleaners.
Elizabeth Warren: Yes, and christmas tree water. :)
HOLIDAY FOOD ITEMS That Could Cause Problems For Dogs and Cats
* Alcoholic beverages
* Chocolate (baker's, semi-sweet, milk chocolate)
* Coffee (grounds, beans, chocolate covered espresso beans)
* Moldy or spoiled foods
* Onions, onion powder
* Fatty foods
* Salt
* Yeast dough
Y'all know why each of these is problematic?

Thomas: Theobromine
Brenda: fatty foods will lead to pancreatitis, we always saw this with lap dogs at the holidays and hard sausage. Do I remember right on the chocolate that cocoa powder is the most potent?

Margaret Moorman: I believe that's right, yes. The less that it's diluted with milk, sugar and fat, the more potent it will be.
Elizabeth Warren: Yes, chocolate contains theobromine (and caffeine), which can be toxic. Let's talk about the chocolate since that is a big one:

Chocolate contains theobromine and caffeine, which are both methylxanthines. The amount of methylxanthines present depends on the type of chocolate (see chart below.) In general, the less sweet the chocolate, the more toxic it could be. In fact, unsweetened baking chocolate contains almost seven times more theobromine as milk chocolate.

Methylxanthines can cause CNS stimulation, tachycardia, and tremors. Signs seen with chocolate toxicosis include vomiting, diarrhea, hyperactivity, polyuria, polydipsia, lethargy, tachycardia, cardiac arrhythmias, seizures, and death. Based on ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center (APCC) experience, mild signs occur in animals ingesting 20 mg/kg and severe signs are seen at doses over 40mg/kg.

Type of Chocolate Methylxanthines-mg/oz (approx):
Milk chocolate 50-62
Semi Sweet 160
Baking chocolate 428-440
Estimates of the smallest amounts that may be fatal are:
**Small dogs such as Chihuahua and toy poodles is 4-10 ounces of milk chocolate or 1/2 to 1 ounce of baking chocolate
** Medium dogs such as dachshunds and cocker spaniels is 1 to 1-1/2 pounds of milk chocolate and 2-3 ounces of baking chocolate.
** Large dogs such as Labradors and Collies is 2 to 4-1/2 pounds of milk chocolate or 4 to 8 ounces of baking chocolate.

When people call and want to know if the hershey's kiss their lab ate is going to kill it, I tell them about this to put it in perspective.

Margaret Moorman: In calculating a dose, I would recommend using the worst case scenario. For example, where it says milk chocolate 50-62 mg/oz, I would use 62 unless it has something else on the label.
Elizabeth Warren: Definitely Margaret, but a lot of people seem to have gotten the idea that chocolate=death, period.

Brenda: I had a 55# Bassett mix that ate a whole batch of no bake oatmeal chocolate cookies. Did not affect him at all. What is in a Hersey chocolate bar?

Elizabeth Warren: I get a lot of candy calls (milk chocolate). They really need to eat a bunch to become toxic. Brenda, I think they make baking chocolate in bars as well as candy bars (milk chocolate).
Margaret Moorman: Hershey's milk chocolate bars contain 55.5 mg/ox of theobromine and 6.45 mg/oz of caffeine. If a 5# dog ingested a 1.55 oz. chocolate bar, the dose would be 42.3 mg/kg.
Elizabeth Warren: Even small amounts of chocolate can and do cause GI upset. Yep; the smaller the dog, the smaller the dose to toxicity.

Brenda: I guess need to be seen by a veterinarian or just monitored at home. What about with birds?

Margaret Moorman: I don't know a toxic dose for birds off the top of my head, Brenda. Sorry.
Elizabeth Warren: I don't know either Brenda. I was just looking for it in an avian text they don't even mention chocolate toxicosis in "Manual of Avian Practice"

Brenda: Have you ever gotten a call with a bird eating it? I don't know that much about exotics.
Phyllis: Chocolate is very toxic in birds - I don't know how much though.

Margaret Moorman: I have not, in recent memory. I had a guy call the other day saying that his dog had ingested an entire can of coffee. I believe the dog was hanging from the ceiling by her toenails.
Elizabeth Warren: Holy moley Margaret!

Brenda: yeast produces alcohol yeast will also expand in the stomach. I'm guessing the caffine with the coffee. Wonder what her heart rate was.

Margaret Moorman: I recommended that she be seen by a veterinarian right away.
Elizabeth Warren: onion can cause hemolytic anemia

Brenda: What about garlic?

Margaret Moorman: Garlic too, at high enough doses.
Elizabeth Warren: Are there any other holiday hazards you can think of that we didn't list tonight?

Brenda: candles, I think that fake snow; turkey, chicken bones. I always tell people with cats to be carefule with candles and labs with those tails.

Elizabeth Warren: The spray snow I think is mostly a risk while it is still wet--just after applying. Scented candles, liquid potpourri, right. I have not personally seen a case with the potpourri. What does it look like Margaret?
Margaret Moorman: Oh, good one. Liquid potpourri BAD!!!! It causes sloughing of the tongue and can cause their paws to swell if they step in it. It's really horrible
Elizabeth Warren: Oh, yuck! Of course, there is also a risk of euthanasia at holiday time. That's not really a hazard, but I do see more people choosing to put their pets down around holiday time:
Margaret Moorman: Really? How odd.

Brenda: The other thing I worry about is with the holiday in general, people going in and out, pets escaping. I also tell people if they are traveling with their pets to get a temporary tag with the number of where they are staying, not the home number. Or write it on the collar with tape and perm. marker. What do you all think about this big Home 4 the Holidays push?
Phyllis: We have a record high right before Thanksgiving.

Margaret Moorman: Why would they wait until the holidays?

Brenda: Don't want to pay the boarding fees?
Phyllis: I think some of it is too sick and trying to deal with company.

Elizabeth Warren: can't find a kennel, the pet doesn't get along with the visiting family, it's too sick to keep indoors and they don't want it bothering the guests, etc etc. Money blown on gifts, can't afford to treat the probs caused by chocolate, mistletoe, tinsel, etc. I think it is very sad. You don't want to be an old/sick/grumpy pet around the holidays.

Brenda: They can always get a new one for Christmas.

Margaret Moorman: oh stop, you're bumming me out
Elizabeth Warren: That's the truth; isn't it awful?

Brenda: I was in the mall today and I had to put a flyer over my face so I wouldn't look at the pet store and start getting mad. I will be arrested one day for going in and telling people to run for their lives, the pets are poor quality, overpriced and the people don't know what they are getting into.
Phyllis: We saw three or four new pets yesterday - that Santa brought early.

Elizabeth Warren: On the other hand, look at all of the advertising out there for people who want to give their pets gifts for Christmas. There is a whole market for the pet that is part of the family.
That's where I'd like to leave this chat tonight--realize that this can be a "bad" and a dangerous time of year for pets, but let's also be encouraged by the growing "pets are family" philosophy.

Brenda: Thanks for ending us on a positive note, Elizabeth. :)I'm going to go hug my pets and hit the sack. Good night.

Elizabeth Warren: Now, you all leave and give your pets a big hug before you go to bed tonight. They have it good, with people who care for their well-being so much. :)

Brenda: Great minds think alike. :)
Phyllis: Good night all!

Margaret Moorman: good night, Brenda Thank heavens!
Elizabeth Warren: Take care all and goodnight

***** Logging stopped: 12/15/2002 10:09:50 PM

Participants: Elizabeth, Margaret, Brenda, Megan, Phyllis, Thomas